"Chivalry is dead."
That’s a statement that’s thrown around often enough. After reading Lemon Gloria’s post on who pays for dinner and all the comments, I started to think about chivalry and what I associate with the term. Most often, when that phrase is thrown around, it’s to lambaste a man for not doing something ‘nice’. Like opening a door for a woman, maybe not paying for a dinner, even not getting up from a seat for a standing woman on the metro.
Chivalry is limited only to men. Women can’t be accused of not being chivalrous (can we?). It’s the man’s responsibility to step up and do those nice things. I’ve wondered how the onus falls on an average Joe on the metro to give up his seat just because a woman doesn’t have a seat. I can’t get mad at guys for not giving up their seat. They have as much of a right to it as I do. Pregnant women, seniors, infirm, of course that’s a different story. But average Sally? Nah. But sometimes when my dogs are barking/my heel spurs are killing me or I’ve had a bad day and don’t feel like getting shoved around up in the masses crowded by the door and uncomfortably spooning with strangers, I will think (unreasonably) that one of those guys should give up a seat.*
Lemon Gloria said in her post that it was standard dating practice that she almost never had to pay on first dates. Most women who commented said the same thing. Most men who commented said that they generally paid too. That is was the ‘right thing to do.’ Of course there was the talk of the woman perfunctorily reaching for the bag and being shooed off – that is expected. We get points off if we don’t; I guess that’s our chivalrous match point. I was shocked at how many people said this. Out of the 6 or 7 guys I’ve gone out with in the last year, only one of them paid on the first date. He also paid on the second. I was so surprised when this occurred, because it hadn’t happened in so long. And then here I read that this a regular occurrence, which made me think that a, I was going out with assholes, or b, those guys must not think much of me. Really, I come out the winner either way.
I don’t know that I feel like it’s the guy’s responsibility to pay on a first date. I don’t like the standard dating advice of whoever asks the other out should pay. I mean, I usually have something to do with the plans, I don’t just say ‘whatever you want to do’. I contribute. I suppose it might be appropriate in certain circumstances, like if I invited a guy to a baseball game, I wouldn’t ask him to cough up the money for his ticket. Or if a guy invited me to one, I wouldn’t expect him to pay for my beer and hot dog. On that first date where he paid, we went for beers at a pub after dinner, and I paid for those. He offered, but I said I had it. I mean, dinner…drinks…I know it’s not exactly equal, but if the opportunity arises I try to reciprocate.
Do those little acts of chivalry make men better men? I don’t know. I love those little things, but more along the lines of opening a car door, opening a door to a building. Buying dinner is nice too, but the smaller ‘chivalrous’ things mean more to me for whatever reason.
The real definition of chivalry I suppose can be translated across the ages in terms of giving up a seat or paying for dinner. According to dictionary.com, chivalry is defined as
While I would categorize myself as a strong woman and can do plenty of things for myself, I do like it when a man can be ‘strong’ yet gentle and put his hand on the small of my back as we’re walking through a crowd, or offer me a hand getting out of the car.
I’m strong enough to accept it.
*Although I do believe on the really crowded days that those little snot nosed private school anklebiters shouldn’t be sitting, even if I don’t get their seats.
That’s a statement that’s thrown around often enough. After reading Lemon Gloria’s post on who pays for dinner and all the comments, I started to think about chivalry and what I associate with the term. Most often, when that phrase is thrown around, it’s to lambaste a man for not doing something ‘nice’. Like opening a door for a woman, maybe not paying for a dinner, even not getting up from a seat for a standing woman on the metro.
Chivalry is limited only to men. Women can’t be accused of not being chivalrous (can we?). It’s the man’s responsibility to step up and do those nice things. I’ve wondered how the onus falls on an average Joe on the metro to give up his seat just because a woman doesn’t have a seat. I can’t get mad at guys for not giving up their seat. They have as much of a right to it as I do. Pregnant women, seniors, infirm, of course that’s a different story. But average Sally? Nah. But sometimes when my dogs are barking/my heel spurs are killing me or I’ve had a bad day and don’t feel like getting shoved around up in the masses crowded by the door and uncomfortably spooning with strangers, I will think (unreasonably) that one of those guys should give up a seat.*
Lemon Gloria said in her post that it was standard dating practice that she almost never had to pay on first dates. Most women who commented said the same thing. Most men who commented said that they generally paid too. That is was the ‘right thing to do.’ Of course there was the talk of the woman perfunctorily reaching for the bag and being shooed off – that is expected. We get points off if we don’t; I guess that’s our chivalrous match point. I was shocked at how many people said this. Out of the 6 or 7 guys I’ve gone out with in the last year, only one of them paid on the first date. He also paid on the second. I was so surprised when this occurred, because it hadn’t happened in so long. And then here I read that this a regular occurrence, which made me think that a, I was going out with assholes, or b, those guys must not think much of me. Really, I come out the winner either way.
I don’t know that I feel like it’s the guy’s responsibility to pay on a first date. I don’t like the standard dating advice of whoever asks the other out should pay. I mean, I usually have something to do with the plans, I don’t just say ‘whatever you want to do’. I contribute. I suppose it might be appropriate in certain circumstances, like if I invited a guy to a baseball game, I wouldn’t ask him to cough up the money for his ticket. Or if a guy invited me to one, I wouldn’t expect him to pay for my beer and hot dog. On that first date where he paid, we went for beers at a pub after dinner, and I paid for those. He offered, but I said I had it. I mean, dinner…drinks…I know it’s not exactly equal, but if the opportunity arises I try to reciprocate.
Do those little acts of chivalry make men better men? I don’t know. I love those little things, but more along the lines of opening a car door, opening a door to a building. Buying dinner is nice too, but the smaller ‘chivalrous’ things mean more to me for whatever reason.
The real definition of chivalry I suppose can be translated across the ages in terms of giving up a seat or paying for dinner. According to dictionary.com, chivalry is defined as
The sum of the ideal qualification of a knight, including courtesy, generosity, valor, and dexterity in arms.And to go even further, ChivalryToday.com** says that the small acts of courtesy that define it today are just that – small acts. There is much more ‘at the heart of chivalry’:
Chivalry is a code of conduct created by the knights of the Middle Ages to combat the attitudes of brutality, ignorance and prejudice which were all-too-common in that era of darkness and cruelty. Far from being dead, chivalry today is embodied by people whose actions are always trustworthy and admirable; who understand that strength and gentleness are not opposites; and who know the importance of standing by one’s principles, no matter how tempting the compromise.I think most people would rather have someone chivalrous at heart in this sense. Of course these guys probably do open up doors and take your arm or hand while they walk on the curbside because they actually like doing those little nice things or just think it’s the right thing to do. Not because they think a woman needs it or because she expects it, or wonders whether it will insult her – he does it because he likes to. That’s a knight in shining armor, to me.
While I would categorize myself as a strong woman and can do plenty of things for myself, I do like it when a man can be ‘strong’ yet gentle and put his hand on the small of my back as we’re walking through a crowd, or offer me a hand getting out of the car.
I’m strong enough to accept it.
*Although I do believe on the really crowded days that those little snot nosed private school anklebiters shouldn’t be sitting, even if I don’t get their seats.
**In case you were wondering if there's a modern day chivalrous code of ethics of sort, check this out.
There is such a thing as female chivalry, it's just different. Off the top of my head, I can think of a few things that guys look for:
(1) The aforementioned "at least reaching for or offering to pay the bill".
(2) Unlocking the driver's side door after we let you into the car on the passenger side.
(3) Threesomes.
I am not the kind of girl who digs flowers or poems--it makes me feel ookey. But I will be damned if my heart doesn't skip a little beat when a guy holds on to me in a big crowd or gives me the first slice of pizza...
This post made me think about my expectations and hopes. And I'm sorry that one of the things that my post did was make you wonder if you were going out with assholes or guys who didn't think much of you simply because they didn't pick up the check. I've gone out with guys who turned out to be assholes and guys who can't have thought much of me - just happens that they got dinner. So I'd definitely like to strike that out as something to wonder about. The rest, I have no idea.
I’m strong enough to accept it.
I used to habitually hold doors open for people... Women who aren't "strong enough to accept it" broke me of that habit. I can only take so much chewing out.
:-(
I'm glad I'm not the only woman who always seems to pay on the first date! I used to think I was asserting my financial independence; now I think the guys were just being cheap.
arjewtino -
1. absolutely.
2. that's from a bronx tale, and if i were to find myself in a car without auto locks, absolutely.
3. shut up.
4. shave the soul patch and go Mo all the way.
lemmonex - i do like flowers. however, i don't hold the abscence of flowers against guys either. but i'm with you, it's the small things. and good call on the first slice of pizza!
lisa - you are very sweet, but there is no need to apologize! it was really interesting to me to see this is standard dating practice for so many people. and really, while i think it's nice when they do, i don't hold it against a guy for not paying on the first date. you're right in that it's not necessarily indicative of good or bad.
vvk - no! don't go to the dark side! it's always a nice thing to do no matter what, for whomever. don't be one of those people who i say THANK YOU loudly too when a door has very clearly not been held when i'm RIGHT BEHIND YOU. i don't get how anyone could chew out someone else for holding open a door. it's just a nice thing to do.
anon - i'm glad *I'm* not the only woman either! :-)
I always reach over to unlock the drivers side door. However, with the invention of automatic locks, that practice kinda falls by the wayside. So now I'll reach over and open the door. It normally scores points.
We had a meeting at work the other day, and it was clear that people were going to be standing. I was fine with that, but one of my coworkers was in the process of sitting down, saw me, and stood up and gave me his chair. It was nice. The best part of the story: he's a few months younger than me. Chivalry is not dead!
:-)
If chivalry is dead, it's because women killed it.
My first experience in anti-chivalry occurred in NYC (of all places). The woman walking into the building behind me refused to walk through the door because I was holding it open for her.
"I can do it myself!" she insisted. She entered only after I shrugged and walked in letting the door close behind me. I'll never forget the moment when I determined I could never live in NYC.
i'm posting this after aaron -- that i usually pay for myself and sometimes for both of us. now i wonder if i'm not allowing chivalry to happen... :)
I expect guys to pay on the first few dates. I actually expect them to pay on most of the dates.
I also expect flowers and opening doors, pulling out chairs, holding my bag and things of that sort.
There's no bigger turn off than a cheap guy.
I don't need for a fella to throw his jacket over an approaching puddle, or pull my chair out for me, but holding the door open or allowing me to enter/exit the elevator first is a lovely courtesy to extend. Mind you, not an obligation - a courtesy. And it's appreciated - very much.
The small percentage of women out there who are offended by someone offering to pick up the tab or holding a door open for them need to stop ruining it for the rest of us - the ones who appreciate it when a man acts as if he was raised by someone other than a pack of wolves.
I don't need for a fella to throw his jacket over an approaching puddle, or pull my chair out for me, but holding the door open or allowing me to enter/exit the elevator first is a lovely courtesy to extend. Mind you, not an obligation - a courtesy. And it's appreciated - very much.
The small percentage of women out there who are offended by someone offering to pick up the tab or holding a door open for them need to stop ruining it for the rest of us - the ones who appreciate it when a man acts as if he was raised by someone other than a pack of wolves.
Ditto what Freckled K said. I hate it when people don't appreciate it when someone does something nice. This applies to both men and women.
And women can be chivalrous by making a guy feel like he's her knight. Most women take chivalry for granted.
Amen sistah! I wrote recently about chivalry and the responsibility women have when a man is chivalrous. Thank him ladies, that is all that is needed. A genuine and well meant thank you is enough to keep that sentiment coming.
Also, its nice to return the favor unexpectedly, that way they'll continue doing it ten fold.
I am a FIRM believer in a guy not being aghast at the thought of paying at the first date. I always reach for my wallet, but they lose points if they let me pay. I will then return the favor next date...but it just lets you see where they stand on the level of respect that will later come into play if you delve deeper into a relationship. Are they selfish or considerate?
You can tell loads about a man by his mannerisms, as you can when a woman breezes by a kindly gent holding a door without an ounce of a thank you.
Great post keep it up.
One of the things I look for is the "reach for the lock" action when I open a womans door and start to walk around the car. It signals she is interested in you, not just thinking of herself or that she needs to feed the cat when she gets home.
I always walk on the curb side, open doors, and pay on the first date, especially if I have asked her. After that, we can decide how it goes.
I am a fan of the you pick this one up, I'll get the next one school of thought. It evens out in the end, and one person does not end up paying all the time.
I was so born in the wrong part of the country. I should live in the South where women are beautiful and appreciate a gentleman. Instead of the Northwest where opening a door may get you hit over the head with a Birkenstock or something.
I thought of this post this morning. Here's why:
I'm walking into my office building, carrying a gallon of apple cider in each hand (office T-giving potluck today). Two women walking in front of me, talking amongst themselves heading towards an interior door. I'm roughly five feet behind them.
First woman through the door, holds for friend. Friend walks through, extends her right arm in that kind-of-holding-but-not-really way, and lets it go. Right at my face. Didn't even look behind her. Luckily for me, I saw this coming, and stopped the door with my foot. And held it for the guy behind me as I went through. With my foot.
I equate "chivalry" with "courtesy" in most cases, and I do have an expectation of both genders in that regard. Not so much with date/paying stuff, but the other things. Doors, please/thank you, etc. It's less about man/woman than paying attention to what's going on around you. To me, anyway.
beth - looks like you got chivalric karmic payback with the coworker giving up his seat! :-) I don't think it's dead, although it certainly flops about in death throes in everday situations (see WiB's comment).
aaron - i like i said, i don't think it's dead. and that's really, really messed up that someone would say that to you.
jess - i do the same thing in terms of paying, but like i said, i don't think that picking up a check equals chivalry. it's definitely nice though.
anon - i don't equate a guy not paying for all dates and not sending flowers as being cheap. not at all.
freckledk - perfectly said, as usual. i agree 100%.
jo - it makes me sad to hear that women snap at men trying to do something nice and innocuous, and makes me sad if women take it for granted. or anyone takes it for granted.
amanda - i don't take points off for him not paying on a first date, but that's just me. but you are right about genuinely thanking someone. that's all it takes. and thank you!
wsop - don't give up on doing the nice things! there are people out there who do appreciate it.
wib - bitches. seriously, once i got in the door i would have said, thanks! they wouldn't have noticed, of course. i think the lesson here, and what people are saying, is that there's such a thing as everyday chivalry and everyone would do well to take up the cause a bit.
I think chivalry is definetly dead. I love when a guy holds open the door or pulls out my chair at dinner. Some girls may hate it, but I eat it up. I would probably pass out if a guy ever stood up at the table as I returned to it from the restroom. That is my "thing."
Long time no read :-)
I like your take on things. I definitely appreciate the reciprocation on things such as drinks after dinner, cab fares, etc.
I agree with the comment on some of your examples being "courtesy" rather than "chivalry". Holding doors open, offering your arm to a woman and opening the car door for her seem like common sense manners to me... but maybe I'm the exception and not the rule.
Respect and courtesy. If that's how chivalry is defined, so be it. I expect it, and I'll give it. And, arjewtino? 1 and 2, great. 3? HA.
Wow, am I lucky woman or what? I have the best boyfriend EVER! Ha.
No, really, he is actually very chivalrous (usually). The sweetest thing he does is walk on the curb side of the street so if a car jumps the curb, he gets killed first. Really.
And on our first date, we did several things, so paid for some stuff and I paid for some stuff. Seems fair--I wouldn't expect someone to spend so much money on me.
first i have to say i find it amazing that you actually answer your posters. right on! and secondly i agree with wib that chivalry would be equated with courtesy more if it weren't rigorously attached to men. i STILL hold the door for women, but it really steams me when they breeze right by without a thank you, as if i were the doorman. courtesy should go both ways.
When I taught The Canterbury Tales to my seniors, some of the sources I gave them included the knight's code of chivalry. I am an independent woman, but I prefer a man to be courteous in those quintessential acts of politeness. Its not so much the action, but the thought...
I think that small acts of kindness that show you're considering the needs of people other than yourself are all chivalrous, no matter who is performing the act.
Paying on first dates and coming to the door with flowers...those examples have a lot more to do with expectation when you don't know the person. When you get to know each other a little I think that definitely becomes a chivalrous act.
And Anon poster two posts above this: The only time I don't say thank you when men open doors for me is when they check me out the whole time they're holding the door ; )
Hey girl - you haven't blogged in a while. I hope everything is going well!
Hey girl,
Well I def don’t think that chivalry is dead at all. But it is becoming quite rare. None the less I believe that you can find guys out there who are gentleman and who will open doors for you and what not
But like you said in your post I think one of the most important things is that the guy is genuine and just in general a guy with a good heart.
That is more than someone just being able to open a door because he feels its the right thing to do.
You know .. with that said, I think girls no matter how far we come, will always appreciate the little things that men do for us. Like remember our favorite food or understand these little quirks we may have about ourselves and tolerate it.
That to me means much more than any door opening, curb walking, chair pulling guy =)
Hot Alpha Female
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